Comments on: Obama speaks in defense of habeas corpus http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/ News, politics and the media in the River City Sat, 22 Nov 2008 05:12:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Nunan http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41499 Nunan Wed, 04 Oct 2006 18:49:42 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41499 Alright Knight, do you really believe that we invaded Iraq to be the "rescuers and heralds of democracy"? Now come on, you are not really that naive are you? We are there because someone had to pay for attacking us on 9/11. And why not pick the country with vast oil reserves and a regime that we have wanted ousted for years? Make up some bullshit about weapons of mass destruction, and you have yourself a war. If we were these great saviors of democracy, then why haven't we pursued wars in all of the other regimes around the world controled by ruthless dictators? Lets see, Cuba, which is no more than 90 miles off of our coast has been controled and ruled by a communist dictator for decades. Why haven't we spread our great democracy to them? Because we don't care. They don't have anything we need, and they are of little threat to us politcally or militarily. I just don't uderstand how you can not understand the severity of the circumstances that we have been put in. I don't know how you suggest fighting a war, but to me it seems sensible that the method that has been used since the beginning of existence, killing your enemy, has worked out pretty good when it comes to winning a war. Whoever kills the most people wins. That is how I see it. That is what history has proven to us. Why should we abandoned that strategy now. As I have said before, how did we win WWII in the Pacific? We killed as many innocent people as we could, to prove to Japan that they made a serious mistake for attacking us on our soil. And what did they do? They surrendered, and since then, we have not had a single problem with them. How can you argue these facts? If we are this great, moral, democracy srpeading country that you have conjured up in your head, why are we fighting a war in the first place. You can not have your cake and eat it too. So, by your account, as long as you are killing people in the name of democray it is alright and morally acceptable. I am sure that the Iragi people would totally agree with you, and were just counting down the days until we invaded their country. Occupiers are exactly what we are, how can you say any different. We went to someones country, militarily forced their government out of power, and installed a government that was hand picked by us. And now our troops are patroling their cities, and fighting the opposition to this new government. Umm, yeah that would pretty be the definition of "occupiers" or "conquerers". The reason we are there is a moot point now. What we all must understand is that we are in a full fledge war. We must treat it as such. Alright Knight, do you really believe that we invaded Iraq to be the “rescuers and heralds of democracy”? Now come on, you are not really that naive are you? We are there because someone had to pay for attacking us on 9/11. And why not pick the country with vast oil reserves and a regime that we have wanted ousted for years? Make up some bullshit about weapons of mass destruction, and you have yourself a war. If we were these great saviors of democracy, then why haven’t we pursued wars in all of the other regimes around the world controled by ruthless dictators? Lets see, Cuba, which is no more than 90 miles off of our coast has been controled and ruled by a communist dictator for decades. Why haven’t we spread our great democracy to them? Because we don’t care. They don’t have anything we need, and they are of little threat to us politcally or militarily.
I just don’t uderstand how you can not understand the severity of the circumstances that we have been put in. I don’t know how you suggest fighting a war, but to me it seems sensible that the method that has been used since the beginning of existence, killing your enemy, has worked out pretty good when it comes to winning a war. Whoever kills the most people wins. That is how I see it. That is what history has proven to us. Why should we abandoned that strategy now. As I have said before, how did we win WWII in the Pacific? We killed as many innocent people as we could, to prove to Japan that they made a serious mistake for attacking us on our soil. And what did they do? They surrendered, and since then, we have not had a single problem with them. How can you argue these facts? If we are this great, moral, democracy srpeading country that you have conjured up in your head, why are we fighting a war in the first place. You can not have your cake and eat it too. So, by your account, as long as you are killing people in the name of democray it is alright and morally acceptable. I am sure that the Iragi people would totally agree with you, and were just counting down the days until we invaded their country. Occupiers are exactly what we are, how can you say any different. We went to someones country, militarily forced their government out of power, and installed a government that was hand picked by us. And now our troops are patroling their cities, and fighting the opposition to this new government. Umm, yeah that would pretty be the definition of “occupiers” or “conquerers”.
The reason we are there is a moot point now. What we all must understand is that we are in a full fledge war. We must treat it as such.

]]> By: knight in dragonland http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41407 knight in dragonland Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:03:06 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41407 Nunan, You are pigeon-holing ENTIRE POPULATIONS of countries like North Korea and Venezuela. To say that they all hate Americans with a passion that will last generations is ridiculous in the extreme. In the three polls Hugo Chavez has faced in Venezuela - the 1998 & 2000 elections and the 2004 recall referendum - Chavez won between 56 and 60% of the vote with 30-44% of the electorate declining to participate. That hardly seems to be an overwhelming mandate for his position - although certainly more of a mandate than the U.S. electorate gave President Bush. As for North Korea, the people there are not allowed to have an opinion. They live under one of the most brutal totalitarian regimes left on Earth. Some there buy into the propaganda, I'm sure - but as evidenced by those who have fled to South Korea and China, many others do not. In Afghanistan the people DID celebrate us as liberators, although we're losing that good will for the same reason we've lost it in Iraq - we're failing to provide safety and security so people can get on with their lives. It is precisely this belligerent "Don't f@#k with the USA" "Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out" attitude that people abroad find so disgusting - and frankly turns my stomach as well. Fear is a VERY POOR motivator psychologically. Has the death penalty reduced the incidence of capital crimes? Not a bit. Carrots are much more effective than sticks. Look at gambling as a prime example of this concept. Fear of the much more common outcome - losing your money - is EASILY overcome by the much less likely reward of winning a big jackpot. Fear for one's own safety certainly provokes a response, but it is often exactly counter to your desired goals. In Iraq, it makes the average citizen angry rather than trembling. As soon as the gun turns away from them, they are more likely to keep silent and let the terrorists do their work or even actively aid them. There are 25 million people in Iraq. We can't keep a gun on everyone at all times. With the "make 'em fear us" strategy we truly become occupiers and conquerors, not the rescuers and heralds of democracy that we claimed to be going into Iraq. What's the next step after that? Genocide? Just because hypocrisy has been a part of our history doesn't mean we should just capitulate to it. Ohhh, we're hypocrites ... let's just wallow in it! That's a dangerous and lazy attitude. Nunan,
You are pigeon-holing ENTIRE POPULATIONS of countries like North Korea and Venezuela. To say that they all hate Americans with a passion that will last generations is ridiculous in the extreme. In the three polls Hugo Chavez has faced in Venezuela - the 1998 & 2000 elections and the 2004 recall referendum - Chavez won between 56 and 60% of the vote with 30-44% of the electorate declining to participate. That hardly seems to be an overwhelming mandate for his position - although certainly more of a mandate than the U.S. electorate gave President Bush. As for North Korea, the people there are not allowed to have an opinion. They live under one of the most brutal totalitarian regimes left on Earth. Some there buy into the propaganda, I’m sure - but as evidenced by those who have fled to South Korea and China, many others do not. In Afghanistan the people DID celebrate us as liberators, although we’re losing that good will for the same reason we’ve lost it in Iraq - we’re failing to provide safety and security so people can get on with their lives.

It is precisely this belligerent “Don’t f@#k with the USA” “Kill ‘em all and let Allah sort ‘em out” attitude that people abroad find so disgusting - and frankly turns my stomach as well. Fear is a VERY POOR motivator psychologically. Has the death penalty reduced the incidence of capital crimes? Not a bit. Carrots are much more effective than sticks. Look at gambling as a prime example of this concept. Fear of the much more common outcome - losing your money - is EASILY overcome by the much less likely reward of winning a big jackpot.

Fear for one’s own safety certainly provokes a response, but it is often exactly counter to your desired goals. In Iraq, it makes the average citizen angry rather than trembling. As soon as the gun turns away from them, they are more likely to keep silent and let the terrorists do their work or even actively aid them. There are 25 million people in Iraq. We can’t keep a gun on everyone at all times. With the “make ‘em fear us” strategy we truly become occupiers and conquerors, not the rescuers and heralds of democracy that we claimed to be going into Iraq. What’s the next step after that? Genocide?

Just because hypocrisy has been a part of our history doesn’t mean we should just capitulate to it. Ohhh, we’re hypocrites … let’s just wallow in it! That’s a dangerous and lazy attitude.

]]> By: Nunan http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41327 Nunan Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:32:15 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41327 Listen Knight, I understand the point that you are conveying. I just feel that sometimes a situation gets to a point where diplomacy and democracy have failed and nothing that we ever try or do will change this. I believe that we have been cornered into one of these situations in the Middle East and a few other countries around the world. The general population of many countries has such a hatred for the American people and culture, that it will take generations, if not longer, before they gain an ounce of respect for us. Countries like North Korea and Venezuala believe that we represent everything that is evil to them. How do you suppose that we win the respect from states such as these? And these aren't even countries in the Middle East!!! As soon as we figure out how to get out of this mess with the Islamofascists, we are going to find ourselves having to deal with these two countries. That is why I believe that we must send a message to the rest of the world that blatantly says "Don't Fuck With the USA. You may not respect us, but you will fear us." We can not let them think that they have a chance to win a war against us. We must act with brute force to prove this point. We have done it before and we WILL do it again. I am just proposing doing it sooner than later. And as for your little founding fathers rambling, yeah that sounds good, but we abandoned that strategy decades ago. Hmm, I wonder how many civilians we killed in the in the two atom bombs we dropped on Japan? Umm, my guess would be hundreds of thousands. Ask old Thomas Jefferson, one of these great moral slave owning founding fathers, if that is a tool of democracy. We have been hypocrites since the inception of this great country, but isn't everyone in some way or shape? Sometimes you must make harsh decisions that go against your particular beliefs or morals. Doing the right thing is not always possible. I am not justifying the torturing of innocent civilians or imprisoning people based on fruitless allegations. But I am saying that there are certain situations in which I would not be against using whatever means necessary to gain intelligence on possible terrorist attacks on American soldiers or on American soldiers. If they chose to be a terrorist and try to attack and kill Americans, then they should be treated like the dogs they are. Listen Knight, I understand the point that you are conveying. I just feel that sometimes a situation gets to a point where diplomacy and democracy have failed and nothing that we ever try or do will change this. I believe that we have been cornered into one of these situations in the Middle East and a few other countries around the world. The general population of many countries has such a hatred for the American people and culture, that it will take generations, if not longer, before they gain an ounce of respect for us. Countries like North Korea and Venezuala believe that we represent everything that is evil to them. How do you suppose that we win the respect from states such as these? And these aren’t even countries in the Middle East!!! As soon as we figure out how to get out of this mess with the Islamofascists, we are going to find ourselves having to deal with these two countries. That is why I believe that we must send a message to the rest of the world that blatantly says
“Don’t Fuck With the USA. You may not respect us, but you will fear us.” We can not let them think that they have a chance to win a war against us. We must act with brute force to prove this point. We have done it before and we WILL do it again. I am just proposing doing it sooner than later. And as for your little founding fathers rambling, yeah that sounds good, but we abandoned that strategy decades ago. Hmm, I wonder how many civilians we killed in the in the two atom bombs we dropped on Japan? Umm, my guess would be hundreds of thousands. Ask old Thomas Jefferson, one of these great moral slave owning founding fathers, if that is a tool of democracy. We have been hypocrites since the inception of this great country, but isn’t everyone in some way or shape? Sometimes you must make harsh decisions that go against your particular beliefs or morals. Doing the right thing is not always possible. I am not justifying the torturing of innocent civilians or imprisoning people based on fruitless allegations. But I am saying that there are certain situations in which I would not be against using whatever means necessary to gain intelligence on possible terrorist attacks on American soldiers or on American soldiers. If they chose to be a terrorist and try to attack and kill Americans, then they should be treated like the dogs they are.

]]> By: knight in dragonland http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41251 knight in dragonland Tue, 03 Oct 2006 06:05:58 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41251 Wow, Bill ... I can't guess who you're referring to in your piece about your blog posting policy ... I just can't imagine who it might be... Murphy. Knight in Drag? Wow Murph ... that's so ... junior high! I'm impressed with your critique of the content of my post. Where did you graduate? Vonster's School for Trolls? Nunan. Wow. You have anger issues, my friend. Let me set something straight, here. I am not suggesting that we pursue Osama bin Laden with tea & roses. Those who take arms against us must be met with deadly force. I do not contest that one bit. However, we must be careful in the application of that force, or we end up creating more enemies than we kill. An insurgency, especially one that uses suicide attackers, is completely dependent on its ability to recruit new members to sustain itself. It is also dependent on the assistance of the populace - either by actively supporting them or simply looking the other way and refusing to answer questions. The Middle East is still a region of tribes and clans. Those affiliations still define the social structure of countries like Iraq and Afghanistan to a great extent. If we use our power indiscriminately, then we set off a whole cycle of vengeance and retribution that feeds right into the terrorists’ recruitment efforts and makes it more likely that our enemies will find aid within the general populace. I’m NOT saying that we have to win the hearts and minds of the terrorists – and maybe I’ll forgive you a bit of your venom if that’s what you thought I was saying. Absolutely not. I’m talking about the general population of the countries we’re occupying and the Islamic world in general. We have to present a better ideal, a better solution, a better way of life – an alternative to the terrorist's culture of death and medieval brutality. We can’t do that if we BECOME medieval brutes by torturing people! Yes, the U.S. was already perceived as a bully by many even before the invasion of Iraq. That's far different than codifying into law a policy that goes against everything we're supposed to stand for as a country. Torture & indefinite imprisonment without trial – these are the tools of dictatorship, not democracy, and too many innocents have already been abused by this administration’s policies. We support those things and we prove those who oppose us right. They can say "Look at those hypocritical Americans! Their great laws and civil rights only apply when they feel like it! Anyone who gets in their way can be imprisoned, tortured and killed with impunity!" The great ideas of our founders are great because they are UNIVERSALLY true and should be applied thus. Wow, Bill … I can’t guess who you’re referring to in your piece about your blog posting policy … I just can’t imagine who it might be…

Murphy. Knight in Drag? Wow Murph … that’s so … junior high! I’m impressed with your critique of the content of my post. Where did you graduate? Vonster’s School for Trolls?

Nunan. Wow. You have anger issues, my friend. Let me set something straight, here. I am not suggesting that we pursue Osama bin Laden with tea & roses. Those who take arms against us must be met with deadly force. I do not contest that one bit. However, we must be careful in the application of that force, or we end up creating more enemies than we kill.

An insurgency, especially one that uses suicide attackers, is completely dependent on its ability to recruit new members to sustain itself. It is also dependent on the assistance of the populace - either by actively supporting them or simply looking the other way and refusing to answer questions. The Middle East is still a region of tribes and clans. Those affiliations still define the social structure of countries like Iraq and Afghanistan to a great extent. If we use our power indiscriminately, then we set off a whole cycle of vengeance and retribution that feeds right into the terrorists’ recruitment efforts and makes it more likely that our enemies will find aid within the general populace.

I’m NOT saying that we have to win the hearts and minds of the terrorists – and maybe I’ll forgive you a bit of your venom if that’s what you thought I was saying. Absolutely not. I’m talking about the general population of the countries we’re occupying and the Islamic world in general. We have to present a better ideal, a better solution, a better way of life – an alternative to the terrorist’s culture of death and medieval brutality. We can’t do that if we BECOME medieval brutes by torturing people!

Yes, the U.S. was already perceived as a bully by many even before the invasion of Iraq. That’s far different than codifying into law a policy that goes against everything we’re supposed to stand for as a country. Torture & indefinite imprisonment without trial – these are the tools of dictatorship, not democracy, and too many innocents have already been abused by this administration’s policies. We support those things and we prove those who oppose us right. They can say “Look at those hypocritical Americans! Their great laws and civil rights only apply when they feel like it! Anyone who gets in their way can be imprisoned, tortured and killed with impunity!” The great ideas of our founders are great because they are UNIVERSALLY true and should be applied thus.

]]> By: holier than thou http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41186 holier than thou Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:34:17 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41186 You sound like a bully nunan. Didn't your parents teach you to play nice? Using those expletive deletives. watch it. these social democrats like to censor and banish your IP to the gulag. You sound like a bully nunan. Didn’t your parents teach you to play nice? Using those expletive deletives. watch it. these social democrats like to censor and banish your IP to the gulag.

]]> By: Nunan http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41128 Nunan Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:35:09 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41128 I am not worried about these nuts invading our country with their military, Knight in Dragonland, I think that we all know that is probably impossibe. But just because that is not an imminent threat, does not mean that American lives are not being lost every day, because of this bullshit way of thinking that comes from people like you. "The War on Terror is an asymmetric war that needs to be battled mostly by political means – a battle for hearts & minds". Are you fuckin crazy? What is wrong with you? The time for diplomacy is far behind us, and now we are in the stage of WAR! Why can't you people see this? Do you think that our enemy has the same complacency and compassion for you as you have for them? They would kill you and your whole family if they ever had the chance. So why is this the time for politics? It is the time for war, and war is not pretty. And Billy Dennis, our reputation around the world has been tainted for years, so don't try to pull this "do the right thing" bullshit. We ARE AlREADY percieved as the big bully, and have been for years. And what is wrong with that anyway? Do you think that countries in the past, have respected us because we were this great moral culture? Fuck no, they respected us because of our natural resources, economy, and our ability to stomp the shit out of any other country in the world. And thats the reason Knight in Dragonland, that the Iraqis surrendered to us in the first Gulf War. They were scared shitless. They saw this huge mass of military unlike anything they've seen before. Do u really think that they surrendered because they thought we would treat them better? You are a complete tool. Now they have been fighting us for years, and actually think that they have a chance to win. This is because we have given them this inkling of hope. I am scared for this country because of people like you. As a great nation, we will have to fight in wars. It is inevitable, there will always be somebody out there who hates us. When forced into this situation, we must show our domination and ability to crush our enemy not through diplomacy, but through brute force. We are not talking about morals here Billy, for there is no morality when it comes to war. War is about killing, and killing has been our business since the creation of our dynasty. I am not worried about these nuts invading our country with their military, Knight in Dragonland, I think that we all know that is probably impossibe. But just because that is not an imminent threat, does not mean that American lives are not being lost every day, because of this bullshit way of thinking that comes from people like you. “The War on Terror is an asymmetric war that needs to be battled mostly by political means – a battle for hearts & minds”. Are you fuckin crazy? What is wrong with you? The time for diplomacy is far behind us, and now we are in the stage of WAR! Why can’t you people see this? Do you think that our enemy has the same complacency and compassion for you as you have for them? They would kill you and your whole family if they ever had the chance. So why is this the time for politics? It is the time for war, and war is not pretty. And Billy Dennis, our reputation around the world has been tainted for years, so don’t try to pull this “do the right thing” bullshit. We ARE AlREADY percieved as the big bully, and have been for years. And what is wrong with that anyway? Do you think that countries in the past, have respected us because we were this great moral culture? Fuck no, they respected us because of our natural resources, economy, and our ability to stomp the shit out of any other country in the world. And thats the reason Knight in Dragonland, that the Iraqis surrendered to us in the first Gulf War. They were scared shitless. They saw this huge mass of military unlike anything they’ve seen before. Do u really think that they surrendered because they thought we would treat them better? You are a complete tool. Now they have been fighting us for years, and actually think that they have a chance to win. This is because we have given them this inkling of hope. I am scared for this country because of people like you. As a great nation, we will have to fight in wars. It is inevitable, there will always be somebody out there who hates us. When forced into this situation, we must show our domination and ability to crush our enemy not through diplomacy, but through brute force. We are not talking about morals here Billy, for there is no morality when it comes to war. War is about killing, and killing has been our business since the creation of our dynasty.

]]> By: tim h http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41125 tim h Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:50:13 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41125 fyi...Obama will be in Peoria with Senator George Shadid and future Senator Dave Koehler on Wednesday, October 4, at the courthouse plaza at noon. fyi…Obama will be in Peoria with Senator George Shadid and future Senator Dave Koehler on Wednesday, October 4, at the courthouse plaza at noon.

]]> By: Murphy http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41107 Murphy Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:31:04 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41107 Billy, why did I need to obtain a new IP to post here? Did you block my old IP? Why did my previous posts post but then 5 minutes later disappear? Are you utilizing censorship? Is there a policy for this site that the public can read? Billy, why did I need to obtain a new IP to post here? Did you block my old IP? Why did my previous posts post but then 5 minutes later disappear?
Are you utilizing censorship? Is there a policy for this site that the public can read?

]]> By: Murphy http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41105 Murphy Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:11:17 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41105 Hey Billy Dennis? Do you have a policy anywhere for the public to read regarding this site? Why do you use censorship and block IP's? I thought democrats were all for free expression and freedom of speech. Why did you delete my previous Murphy posts? Hey Billy Dennis? Do you have a policy anywhere for the public to read regarding this site?

Why do you use censorship and block IP’s? I thought democrats were all for free expression and freedom of speech. Why did you delete my previous Murphy posts?

]]> By: John Grant http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41102 John Grant Mon, 02 Oct 2006 10:56:00 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41102 In a war I think it is all about killing and destroying. Ok? I mean that is surely what the muslim extremists are all about. In a war I think it is all about killing and destroying. Ok? I mean that is surely what the muslim extremists are all about.

]]> By: Murphy http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41079 Murphy Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:09:07 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41079 knight in drag you sound like you really know what you are talking about. Fungus. But as far as anything else you talk about, well you’re just another inexperienced stupid fuck with an opinion. And I’ll include myself in that characterization since I am not an alumna of any military or war college. knight in drag you sound like you really know what you are talking about. Fungus. But as far as anything else you talk about, well you’re just another inexperienced stupid fuck with an opinion. And I’ll include myself in that characterization since I am not an alumna of any military or war college.

]]> By: Murphy http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41078 Murphy Mon, 02 Oct 2006 08:07:57 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41078 I guess there is no freedom of speech on this website when Commissar Billy is in charge. I guess there is no freedom of speech on this website when Commissar Billy is in charge.

]]> By: knight in dragonland http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41054 knight in dragonland Mon, 02 Oct 2006 04:10:39 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41054 I do not dispute a terrorist's ability to disrupt and poison a society. I only contest those who exaggerate the threat, often for political reasons. You may think the thought of invasion is silly, just as I do ... but I've been confronted for my beliefs with phrases like "its a fact you would rather pray 5 times a day than defend this country," (a la Black Helicopter) insinuating that some Muslim invasion and forced conversion is just around the corner. The comparisons with World War II are also endless, and there just is NO comparison. Yes, the initiating events have some similarities ... the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor came as just as much of a shock to the American people. Beyond that, though ... WWII killed 62 million people and involved the mightiest military forces on earth battling for survival and supremacy. It was the largest symmetric conflict in the history of humanity. The War on Terror is an asymmetric war that needs to be battled mostly by political means – a battle for hearts & minds. Terrorists are like fungus - you stomp on one and you just release a bunch of spores, leading 10 more to pop up in other places. You need to attack, well ... the "manure" - the poisoned ideology that feeds them. You don't attack a poisoned ideology by becoming part of an equally poisoned ideology - in other words, by stooping to the level of the terrorists and torturing people. I do not dispute a terrorist’s ability to disrupt and poison a society. I only contest those who exaggerate the threat, often for political reasons. You may think the thought of invasion is silly, just as I do … but I’ve been confronted for my beliefs with phrases like “its a fact you would rather pray 5 times a day than defend this country,” (a la Black Helicopter) insinuating that some Muslim invasion and forced conversion is just around the corner.

The comparisons with World War II are also endless, and there just is NO comparison. Yes, the initiating events have some similarities … the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor came as just as much of a shock to the American people. Beyond that, though … WWII killed 62 million people and involved the mightiest military forces on earth battling for survival and supremacy. It was the largest symmetric conflict in the history of humanity.

The War on Terror is an asymmetric war that needs to be battled mostly by political means – a battle for hearts & minds. Terrorists are like fungus - you stomp on one and you just release a bunch of spores, leading 10 more to pop up in other places. You need to attack, well … the “manure” - the poisoned ideology that feeds them. You don’t attack a poisoned ideology by becoming part of an equally poisoned ideology - in other words, by stooping to the level of the terrorists and torturing people.

]]> By: Dane http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41044 Dane Mon, 02 Oct 2006 00:46:21 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41044 How about "doomed" as in living a lifestyle where you're constantly looking over your shoulder and waiting for the next bomb to go off (like in parts of Israel)? Take two more examples: Southern Thailand and the Philippines. Both countries are soft on these types of Islamic activities, and they're both paying for it big time now. Tourists are being scared out of Phuket, once a beach paradise in Thailand. And in the Philippines, the second largest island of Mindanao (about 2/3rds the size of Illinois) is a complete No-Go for all westerners, even journalists. knight says, "Oooh, yeah … Lebanon is going to invade! Ohhhh no!!!" There's no worry of an invasion, but there is a serious threat of a slow and steady infiltration by terrorists. I think you underestimate how easy it is for guys with box cutters to disrupt society. The DC Snipers (though not Islamic terrorists), were able to paralyze Washington DC for three weeks, and all it took were two men, a gun, and a Chevrolet Caprice. How about “doomed” as in living a lifestyle where you’re constantly looking over your shoulder and waiting for the next bomb to go off (like in parts of Israel)?

Take two more examples: Southern Thailand and the Philippines. Both countries are soft on these types of Islamic activities, and they’re both paying for it big time now. Tourists are being scared out of Phuket, once a beach paradise in Thailand. And in the Philippines, the second largest island of Mindanao (about 2/3rds the size of Illinois) is a complete No-Go for all westerners, even journalists.

knight says, “Oooh, yeah … Lebanon is going to invade! Ohhhh no!!!”

There’s no worry of an invasion, but there is a serious threat of a slow and steady infiltration by terrorists. I think you underestimate how easy it is for guys with box cutters to disrupt society. The DC Snipers (though not Islamic terrorists), were able to paralyze Washington DC for three weeks, and all it took were two men, a gun, and a Chevrolet Caprice.

]]> By: knight in dragonland http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41033 knight in dragonland Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:37:23 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-41033 We are doomed? Really? Name one country that has fallen to a terrorist organization. .... .... .... Hmmmm ... there aren't any, really. Certainly not the country with the most powerful military on Earth. You could possible consider Iran, Lebanon & the Palestinian territories as terrorist nations. The Shah of Iran fell to a massive popular uprising that was then hijacked (an appropriate word, I think) by radical Islamic forces. The mullahs that run Iran are HUGELY unpopular with the general public there. That nut Ahmadinejad was elected because he promised economic reforms and exploited fear of American intervention – so we pretty much have ourselves to blame for his presidency. Iran's military is certainly more formidable than Iraq's, but they still do not have the capability to threaten much beyond the nations immediately surrounding them. Besides, their idea of great tactics is to send waves of 13 year olds with Korans at a machine gun emplacement until the gunners run out of ammo. Seriously - they did this during the Iran-Iraq war in the '80s. It worked sometimes, but it's not exactly a sustainable strategy. Lebanon and the Palestinian territories have terrorist organizations as PART of their governments - but even if these countries were completely controlled by terrorists, do you SERIOUSLY consider them a THREAT??? Oooh, yeah ... Lebanon is going to invade! Ohhhh no!!! The Palestinian territories are completely under Israel's thumb. Not much of a threat there. Al Qaeda caught us with our pants down BIG TIME on 9/11. A bunch of guys with box cutters and fake bombs strapped to their chests killed 3000 people. However, that particular strategy WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN now that we know what happened on 9/11. Of course we have to be vigilant and make sure that no terrorist group obtains nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. Fortunately those capabilities require a significant investment of capital and technical expertise. Yes, terrorists could come to our shores again and kill Americans, and we must be vigilant against that possibility. But to suggest that some army of jihadists are going to storm across our borders and take over ... to say that we're "doomed" if we don't torture and imprison without trial ... is completely ludicrous. We are doomed? Really? Name one country that has fallen to a terrorist organization. …. …. …. Hmmmm … there aren’t any, really. Certainly not the country with the most powerful military on Earth.

You could possible consider Iran, Lebanon & the Palestinian territories as terrorist nations. The Shah of Iran fell to a massive popular uprising that was then hijacked (an appropriate word, I think) by radical Islamic forces. The mullahs that run Iran are HUGELY unpopular with the general public there. That nut Ahmadinejad was elected because he promised economic reforms and exploited fear of American intervention – so we pretty much have ourselves to blame for his presidency. Iran’s military is certainly more formidable than Iraq’s, but they still do not have the capability to threaten much beyond the nations immediately surrounding them. Besides, their idea of great tactics is to send waves of 13 year olds with Korans at a machine gun emplacement until the gunners run out of ammo. Seriously - they did this during the Iran-Iraq war in the ’80s. It worked sometimes, but it’s not exactly a sustainable strategy.

Lebanon and the Palestinian territories have terrorist organizations as PART of their governments - but even if these countries were completely controlled by terrorists, do you SERIOUSLY consider them a THREAT??? Oooh, yeah … Lebanon is going to invade! Ohhhh no!!! The Palestinian territories are completely under Israel’s thumb. Not much of a threat there.

Al Qaeda caught us with our pants down BIG TIME on 9/11. A bunch of guys with box cutters and fake bombs strapped to their chests killed 3000 people. However, that particular strategy WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN now that we know what happened on 9/11. Of course we have to be vigilant and make sure that no terrorist group obtains nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. Fortunately those capabilities require a significant investment of capital and technical expertise.

Yes, terrorists could come to our shores again and kill Americans, and we must be vigilant against that possibility. But to suggest that some army of jihadists are going to storm across our borders and take over … to say that we’re “doomed” if we don’t torture and imprison without trial … is completely ludicrous.

]]> By: Murphy http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40974 Murphy Sun, 01 Oct 2006 08:56:28 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40974 billy dennis said, "This war is going to be over eventually. And assuming we don’t quit fighting, we will win it". Holy Wow!! Does that sound like complacency or what? You make it sound like it will all be over after the next commercial break. I think we have a big time hit coming guys. One bigger than 9/11. We never know when but the pundits say this war won't end in our lifetime - I'm 37. Yet all you guys want to do is make sure we fight fair and openly. LMAO! We are doomed if that kind of thinking prevails. War is ugly. You don't win one by sending it to wardrobe and makeup. The war script was written long ago. Good guys finish last. Especially in a war like this. billy dennis said, “This war is going to be over eventually. And assuming we don’t quit fighting, we will win it”.

Holy Wow!! Does that sound like complacency or what? You make it sound like it will all be over after the next commercial break. I think we have a big time hit coming guys. One bigger than 9/11. We never know when but the pundits say this war won’t end in our lifetime - I’m 37. Yet all you guys want to do is make sure we fight fair and openly. LMAO! We are doomed if that kind of thinking prevails. War is ugly. You don’t win one by sending it to wardrobe and makeup. The war script was written long ago. Good guys finish last. Especially in a war like this.

]]> By: sctobrien http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40959 sctobrien Sun, 01 Oct 2006 05:06:40 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40959 Trey, How's that new album coming? Trey,

How’s that new album coming?

]]> By: knight in dragonland http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40949 knight in dragonland Sun, 01 Oct 2006 01:36:47 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40949 Not only is torture more likely to happen to us if we do it, but our opponents are much less likely to surrender if they know they might be tortured. The reason Iraqi soldiers surrendered to us en masse, especially during the first Gulf War, was that they knew that the American soldiers would treat them better than their own officers would. Now any enemy we face is much more likely to fight to the death. This isn't going to make any difference to suicide bombers, but not all of our enemies have a death wish. You're also assuming guilt without proof. We know very little about those imprisoned at Guantanamo and nothing about any that might remain at these "black sites" around the world. However, there have already been cases in the media of innocents rounded up and tortured and imprisoned for years. One, a Canadian citizen of Syrian descent, was arrested in NYC while on his way back home to Canada. He was renditioned to Jordan and subsequently transported to Syria, where he was brutally tortured and kept in a cell the size of a coffin. A very thorough investigation in Canada has since found absolutely no connection between him and any terrorist group. Five Uighurs from the province of Xinjiang in China (a Muslim minority persecuted by the government there) were quietly released from Guantanamo recently. What was their crime? Being in the wrong place at the wrong time looking for work and for freedom from Chinese oppression. A group of Pakistani bounty hunters found some convenient foreigners to turn over to U.S. forces in Afghanistan because they were offering cash for "terrorists." One of them, Abu Bakker Qasim, recently wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times telling how much he loved and respected America and hoped we would help his people in their struggle for freedom & democracy in opposition to Chinese dictatorship – and we imprisoned him without cause for 4 years! We are enshrining in law a LEGITIMATE moral justification to oppose us. This is a horrible mistake. Hopefully there will be immediate legal challenges and this will be quickly struck down by the Supreme Court. Of course even if that happens, the President will just ignore it like every other law and legal decision that he’s found inconvenient. We'll see. Not only is torture more likely to happen to us if we do it, but our opponents are much less likely to surrender if they know they might be tortured. The reason Iraqi soldiers surrendered to us en masse, especially during the first Gulf War, was that they knew that the American soldiers would treat them better than their own officers would. Now any enemy we face is much more likely to fight to the death. This isn’t going to make any difference to suicide bombers, but not all of our enemies have a death wish.

You’re also assuming guilt without proof. We know very little about those imprisoned at Guantanamo and nothing about any that might remain at these “black sites” around the world. However, there have already been cases in the media of innocents rounded up and tortured and imprisoned for years. One, a Canadian citizen of Syrian descent, was arrested in NYC while on his way back home to Canada. He was renditioned to Jordan and subsequently transported to Syria, where he was brutally tortured and kept in a cell the size of a coffin. A very thorough investigation in Canada has since found absolutely no connection between him and any terrorist group. Five Uighurs from the province of Xinjiang in China (a Muslim minority persecuted by the government there) were quietly released from Guantanamo recently. What was their crime? Being in the wrong place at the wrong time looking for work and for freedom from Chinese oppression. A group of Pakistani bounty hunters found some convenient foreigners to turn over to U.S. forces in Afghanistan because they were offering cash for “terrorists.” One of them, Abu Bakker Qasim, recently wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times telling how much he loved and respected America and hoped we would help his people in their struggle for freedom & democracy in opposition to Chinese dictatorship – and we imprisoned him without cause for 4 years!

We are enshrining in law a LEGITIMATE moral justification to oppose us. This is a horrible mistake. Hopefully there will be immediate legal challenges and this will be quickly struck down by the Supreme Court. Of course even if that happens, the President will just ignore it like every other law and legal decision that he’s found inconvenient. We’ll see.

]]> By: Billy Dennis http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40832 Billy Dennis Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:55:11 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40832 Trey: I don't know what to say. People who are overwhelming guilty of heinous crimes cannot be tortuted into confessing. People who are not citizens of the United States are still afforded fair trials. How can it be a foreign concept to people who grow up IN America that torture is wrong. Period. End or story. It makes US like THEM. Fine. I'll forgoe arguments against torture on moral grounds. Any adult who needs to be lectured on why it's wrong is a lost cause. Let's discuss it on PRACTICAL grounds. Namely, if we do it to them, it makes it that much more likley to have it done to us. This war is going to be over eventually. And assuming we don't quit fighting, we will win it. Our place in history and our ability to lead the world from a moral standpoint will depend on how the world perceives us, as a beacon of decency and democracy, or the biggest fucking bullies in the history of the world. I prefer the former. And THAT is worth the cost of any number of American lives. Trey: I don’t know what to say. People who are overwhelming guilty of heinous crimes cannot be tortuted into confessing. People who are not citizens of the United States are still afforded fair trials. How can it be a foreign concept to people who grow up IN America that torture is wrong. Period. End or story. It makes US like THEM.

Fine. I’ll forgoe arguments against torture on moral grounds. Any adult who needs to be lectured on why it’s wrong is a lost cause.

Let’s discuss it on PRACTICAL grounds. Namely, if we do it to them, it makes it that much more likley to have it done to us. This war is going to be over eventually. And assuming we don’t quit fighting, we will win it. Our place in history and our ability to lead the world from a moral standpoint will depend on how the world perceives us, as a beacon of decency and democracy, or the biggest fucking bullies in the history of the world. I prefer the former. And THAT is worth the cost of any number of American lives.

]]> By: Trey Anastaseo http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40827 Trey Anastaseo Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:11:48 +0000 http://peoriapundit.com/blogpeoria/2006/09/29/obama-speaks-in-defense-of-habeas-corpus/#comment-40827 I am for whatever it takes to get important information out of these soul less madmen. If "torturing" gets a piece of intel that saves even one American soldiers' life, then hey point me to the thumbscrews. Do we forget the images of innocent civilians jumping off the 80th floor of the burning WTC? I am not condoning the torturing of innocent civilians, I am speaking of proven terrorists. In my opinion we are losing this war, and it is because we have not been aggressive enough. We are constantly fighting wars in unfamiliar territory, which is a good thing, (ie. not on American soil), but we must obtain these crucial pieces of intelligence from apprehended terrorists. Do you think that they are going to give up sensitive information just because we ask them for it? THIS IS WAR!!! Make their life a living hell until they tell us what we need to know about how to protect our soldiers. They won't talk, shock em until they do. We have been forced into this mess when they attacked us. How many civilians have been captured, tortured, and eventually beheaded? 1 is too many, and there have been a hell of a lot more than one. I am not even saying that it is a morally right thing to do, but we have to do whatever is possible to defeat this enemy. Hell, maybe we can even put on Al Jazeera. An eye for an eye brother. Kill em all and let Allah sort em out. I am for whatever it takes to get important information out of these soul less madmen. If “torturing” gets a piece of intel that saves even one American soldiers’ life, then hey point me to the thumbscrews. Do we forget the images of innocent civilians jumping off the 80th floor of the burning WTC? I am not condoning the torturing of innocent civilians, I am speaking of proven terrorists. In my opinion we are losing this war, and it is because we have not been aggressive enough. We are constantly fighting wars in unfamiliar territory, which is a good thing, (ie. not on American soil), but we must obtain these crucial pieces of intelligence from apprehended terrorists. Do you think that they are going to give up sensitive information just because we ask them for it? THIS IS WAR!!! Make their life a living hell until they tell us what we need to know about how to protect our soldiers. They won’t talk, shock em until they do. We have been forced into this mess when they attacked us. How many civilians have been captured, tortured, and eventually beheaded? 1 is too many, and there have been a hell of a lot more than one. I am not even saying that it is a morally right thing to do, but we have to do whatever is possible to defeat this enemy. Hell, maybe we can even put on Al Jazeera. An eye for an eye brother. Kill em all and let Allah sort em out.

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